Decrepit Old Fool

The problem is in believing that marriage is a “right.” Marriage is one of those things in this life that this country has turned into a privilege. Cousins can’t marry either.

People should not be allowed to vote on other peoples’ rights. That is what is known as a tyranny of the majority. But for that to be affective, you have to recognize the difference between rights and privileges.

I don’t hear anyone complaining about people taking away blind peoples’ right to drive

I am only stating my opinion that marriage is a privilege, not a right. A right, to me, is something that cannot be taken away. Why does this society have a marriage license?

I do want to make a potential side point clear. I am not in favor of opposing marriage based on sexual preferences. I don’t think a church should have the right to tell the larger society what to do either. On the same grounds, though, does that mean that a minority has the right to tell me what I have to allow my children to hear in school just so that their “right” is protected? It amounts, to me, to indoctrination. Not that my children should become homosexual but rather that they must be accepting/tolerant because a minority wishes, regardless of their beliefs.

I am Christian. I make no qualms about it. I have my belief system, and I have my beliefs on what that will mean for my future. I do, however, recognize peoples’ rights to have different opinions and beliefs and to act on those as long as they do not impinge upon my rights. What frustrates me the most about some people – no one in particular – is when they want to force their opinions or beliefs on another group – particularly through legislation – or they decide they can no longer associate or even talk with a person because they hold different beliefs. It feels like some people – on both sides of many issues – are too willing to start down a path that, to me, leads to a fascist-like statement of “Love it or leave!”

Where’s the balance and tolerance for the other side? I don’t know of any atheists, for example, that would be happy having it made law that every family must say prayer in school. Why then is it acceptable for atheists to tell Christians they cannot pray in school? (I agree prayer should not be mandated either.)

Your opinion is that marriage is a right with restrictions. My opinion is that our society treats marriage as a privilege. I’m perfectly happy to allow you to have your opinion if I can have mine.

Why then is it acceptable for atheists to tell Christians they cannot pray in school?

David, where are these atheists who are keeping school children from praying?  The ACLU, the American Atheists and Americans United for Separation of Church and State (which is headed by a Christian minister) all support the right of children to pray in school, which is also enshrined in the First Amendment and in law. 

Are you not aware of ACLU cases defending student Christian groups, often from school administrators who misunderstand the law and think that they’re not allowed to meet and pray on school grounds?  Christian groups intent on a martyr complex must not publicize those.

The only “belief” being “forced” on anyone there is separation of church and state, which is good for both church, and state.  That means school officials are in an official capacity when they’re on the job.  The coach can’t instigate prayer meetings in the locker room, and the principal can’t put a picture of Jesus at the end of the hall (a couple recent cases).  And you can’t teach religious creation myths in science class. 

How does allowing marriage equality force anything on you or your marriage?  For years, gays work the same jobs we do, pay the same taxes we do, yet they can’t extend benefits to their partners as we do.  In other words, they’ve been subsidizing us.  Now that there’s a realistic chance of them having the same rights everyone else has, the Christian right is screaming “special rights!!!”

Where’s the balance and tolerance for the other side?

Excuse me, my irony meter just exploded; I need to order a new one on Amazon or something.  Christians’ attitude seems to have always been; “Everything is fine as long as people just shut up about their different beliefs!”

The Christian majority has never had to be “balanced” and never has been, some individuals excepted.  Recently atheists have had enough of this treatment, and suddenly Christians are saying; “Hey, how about a little respect!!!”  And calling for “balance” for the “other side” as if Christians weren’t the majority in power.

But hey, go on thinking that Christians have always been tolerant and generous, letting atheists and members of other religions live in “their” country.  Nobody ever got in trouble for supporting the status quo.

@George: I would argue that:

1. You’re correct, the history of the church is absolutely lousy (to avoid actually cursing).

2. A majority of people claim to be Christian, but I don’t personally think of many of them as acting Christian, according to their own standards. In that regard, I don’t really think Christians are in the majority, just that a majority of people like to think of themselves as morally superior, even when they aren’t.

3.While some individuals are exceptions, as you stated, I would not agree with your implication that a majority of atheists are, and always have been, tolerant of Christians. At least, not in my experience. They are generally all to willing to tell you how stupid you must be for believing creation over science, miracles occur, etc., just as soon as they find out you are Christian. They don’t often bother with actually talking to you to find out your own personal views – they just stereotype you as a bigot, and then complain that you’re doing that to them.

@webs05: I want my children to be tolerant. If I could, yes, I would demand it. But being tolerant is not the same as being supportive or following the someone else’s philosophy, and I have heard too many times people claiming that if I don’t do or say things the way they want me to do or say them, then I’m racist, bigoted, fundamentalist, and evil.

There I go, not being agreeable again. Sorry. I hope you both have a great day.

David, I am following your logic to the next logical step. Do you not see the flaw in that reasoning? If it’s okay for your children to think homosexuals have no rights because they are a minority then the next logical step is applying that reasoning to other minorities. Suddenly we step back a hundred years and enter racism, sexism, and on and on. So yea, I disagree with what your saying.

What frustrates me the most about some people – no one in particular – is when they want to force their opinions or beliefs on another group – particularly through legislation – or they decide they can no longer associate or even talk with a person because they hold different beliefs.

Like your religious group wants to force lack of rights on homosexuals?

It seems to me that you don’t think homosexuality is a real thing. That somehow attraction between same sexes is a choice or a “belief”. And just like religious people try to force beliefs on nonbelievers, the same is being done to you. Have you made an attempt to form this opinion based on evidence? I think plenty of studies and evidence might shed some light there that homosexuality is a choice. I know I didn’t choose to be straight.

Either way George already stated it best when he wrote about homosexuals paying the same taxes (all things equal) but don’t get the same treatment. If they pay the same into the system how does it make sense they get less?

David – you may not thank me after slogging through all 22 pages of comments!    At least take a break for eyestrain.  I figured that discussion would last, maybe, two weeks and be a couple pages of comments…

And yet, it does keep moving forward, with some recursion.

When the subject of religion gets injected into a discussion, the discussion has just left the realm of reason and moved into the realm of coercive supersition.

I have thought for a long time that those religionists who howl about prayer in school are not advancing a sincerely held set of superstitions, but a political agenda.

I have had a wonderful committed relationship for many years without marriage, and thousands (millions?) more Americans have done the same. I do not forget, however, that I do it out of choice, because I am allowed that choice.

Now that I come to think of it, my opinion of humankind is high enough, charitable enough, that I assume those who mouth religious “beliefs” do so for motives other than actual belief. That is, I credit them with not being as stupid as they sound.

Revisiting my comment above which appears to be numbered 15:

The phrase “stupid as they sound” might have been harsh. I’ll substitute “unreasoning as they sound.”

I haven’t gotten through the 20 plus pages of comments at S.E.B. yet, but this conversation has a taken a turn now. Now you are stating that I am illogical because I am a Christian. I would argue to you that I am a Christian BECAUSE of Reason.

I would also argue that I am agnostic, in that while I believe, I do not believe I could convince you to believe, nor do I intend to try. Belief is a very personal thing.

David – I said religion can have the effect of short-circuiting reason, as can other things.

Whoops, that was unclear.  I was responding to David, that I didn’t say he was illogical for believing, but that religion can interfere with reason. 

Reason, like intelligence, is not a smoothly sliding scale, but multidimensional.  Everyone has frames of thought where they will dig their heels in and refuse to listen to reason.  The most common include religion, group identity, and economic interest.  These overlap, complicating the problem.