Jerry Falwell has died
May 15, 2007
…and I’m trying not to cheer, but he was such a jerk. One might not think that as an infidel I would care what happens to Christianity but it is a large part of the culture in which I live, and he was a corrupting influence on that faith with his constant powermongering and politicizing.
As so often happens, ***Dave has one of the more insightful and cooler-headed posts on the passing.
Update: I don’t think Christopher Hitchins liked him at all.
Categories: Religion
If there is any afterlife and Falwell is having a discussion with the Powers that Be, I’m wondering how he will explain the “We should go to the Middle East and bomb all the Arabs” (paraphrased) statement. Not something I can even wildly imagine Jesus saying. “Jerk” is too kind. a$$hole is more like it.
Wow, and I thought mine was particularly harsh and judgmental. For me at least.
Positing the Afterlife I believe in, I’m sure that Rev Falwell has had his nose rubbed in the messes he made. I don’t crow about it because I expect to have a similar nose-rubbing (though I hope for different reasons).
I actually find all the things said about him in the other link, perfectly understandable, because of all the things said by him. It disturbs me – deeply – that he could gain such influence while spreading such hatred and bigotry.
Actually, reading more of his quotes, it isn’t clear to me that he differs that much from Fred Phelps.
This is indeed a moral pickle. What is more precious than a life? If I rejoice at someone’s death, isn’t that thumbing my nose at those who are grieving? Doesn’t everyone deserve respect at the end, even if we disagree with them?
On the other hand, this man was scum, and the world is a better place without him: there’s more life and hope and love without him. So shouldn’t I rejoice?
I suppose I could say, as many others have around the net, that I feel sorry for Falwell as a private person, and sympathize with those who loved him, but rejoice that the public person who spread hatred is dead. But is there any way to really separate the two Falwells that is not just semantic hairsplitting?
What the fuck. Falwell can’t see me now, so his feelings won’t be hurt. Nothing personal against those who feel loss at his passing- they have my sympathy- but a great shadow has departed, and I’m going to do a little dance.
Well said. But it’s more of a moral pickle-slice than a whole pickle. His family will be tightly surrounded by supporters and there will be lots of eulogies, etc.
His family will be tightly surrounded by supporters. The only thing that restrains me from rejoicing is that millions of people were influenced by him, and they will find another hatemonger to follow.
The only ones that deserve respect are the ones that earned it. Just because the a$$hole died doesn’t make him less of an a$$hole. Now he is just a dead a$$hole.
To me you earn respect on what you did in life and we all know what Jerry did. Dying should not absolve you and if I were God I would send his a$$ to hell!
First off, I find some (by no means all, but at least some) of the worst quotes to be simply “Attributed” (kudos to the PostiveAtheism site for sourcing their quotations when possible). I tend to disregard those. The remainder are, as I’ve noted myself, worth condemnation.
Secondly, all Phelps seems to be *for* is hate and an angry, judgmental God. I disagreed profoundly with much of Falwell’s theology and all of his politics, but he seemed to at least be for a society he considered to be positive and beneficial for people (as long as all the “bad” people were put in their place).
On the other hand, that made him a lot more dangerous than Phelps, at least in a societal fashion.
Wouldn’t make you much better than Falwell, would it then?
No, I don’t think so, any more than creating antibiotics makes you worse than a staph germ.
In college, one of my friends was gay, and he was terrified; he couldn’t tell anyone. (I found out by accident) He suffered a daily crucifixion of the soul as people casually demonized homosexuals, told crude jokes, and generally took part in the hatefest. He broke his personality in two in fear of being found out; the real person and the being careful of casual words and gestures, never relaxing and being himself. Multiply that suffering by literally millions of people – I lay it on the doorstep of Falwell and his ideological gang.
Why was he terrified? After you found out what negative thing happened?
After I found out, no negative thing happened – he had one friend in whom he could confide. But if it were generally known, at the time, he would have 1) been kicked out of the Christian college we both attended, 2) been disowned by his family, and 3) be even more isolated and lonely than his already near-suicidal state.
I think he took a chance on me finding out because he’d never heard me tell a queer joke, and had probably said something about Jesus never having mentioned it at all.
I lost contact with him after college but he was clearly having trouble reconciling his life with his feelings.
I’d say one of Falwell’s greatest theological failings was pretending to know God’s judgment as to who to punish for what, and, more specifically, how they would be punished (plagues and war and disasters in this world, eternal damnation in the next).
Falwell’s rhetoric and action, and those of his “gang” caused tremendous hurt. I can only condemn him for that, while also hoping that (without sounding too cliched) repentance and forgiveness will be his. As a Christian, I’m certainly called on to expect only the forgiveness I give to others, and while that may mean some problems for Rev Falwell, it’s paradoxically difficult for me to call him on it.
All I can say is that I’m glad he’s not around to continue his teleministry of misery.
See that’s just odd to me. Were the rest of the people around the both of you Neanderthals?
Because here’s where I’m going—In my experience people constantly self select. They seek out others that they think are like them, and that goes for larger groups as well as smaller ones. I don’t mean seek out gays, I mean seek out people that connect on some personal level.
You accepted him, so I wonder if more people would have had the same attitude, had he come out to them in a relatively intelligent manner (i.e, not an in-your-face challenge to their faith and way of life, but an appeal for reciprocal respect on the human level). Were you unique in your group?
I guess to expect his family and a Christian school to accept him would be too much(?), but clearly I don’t think that any one person is defined by a single aspect of their personality (such as sexual orientation). Heck, I also don’t subscribe to the notion that Ted Haggard should be characterized as gay because he occasionally swings in that direction; on the balance his gay behavior does not outweigh his hetero behavior, it just demonstrates an aspect of him. Some people would say that Ted is a hypocrite, but I think that’s a copout that stems from dislike. If you use personal inconsistencies as the basis of hypocrisy, would your friend’s failure to come out also be considered hypocrisy? Both Ted and your friend didn’t come out because of personal fears and pretended to be something they were not to the general public in order to avoid adverse reactions.
I don’t blame Falwell for the culture of gaybashing because Fallwell has very little influence outside his group. More people were outside his group than were in it. But we need to stop applying a litmus test to people—you’re with me or against me—we’re more complex than that, and we can be fellow travelers, but each have their own destination where we part on some things for a while.
No. They were Christians and also products of their culture, and not always clear on the difference between those two. Didn’t make them bad people, but they hadn’t really thought about it or they wouldn’t have been telling those jokes or repeating the 11 bible verses about homosexuality as if that were somehow the only possible way to look at the difference. If he had come out them in any way whatsoever I do not doubt some of them would have changed their opinion but just as certainly he would have faced severe sanctions not least from his family who had made their feelings toward gays very clear.
I totally agree with your admirable perspective of non-objectification of others. But it is a modern perspective. The difference made by 30 years gives me hope that we’re headed for a better future.
“As a Christian, I’m certainly called on to expect only the forgiveness I give to others”
Dave, that seems a very odd statement to me. So the forgiveness you receive is tied or somehow directly related to the forgiveness you grant? Does that extend to God as well as people in your circle? I thought Christianity taught otherwise.
I guess I’m a bit confused, and I suppose this is off topic. But at his core, this was one of Falwell’s central problems—he had no real concept of true forgiveness. Not that I’m equating you to Falwell!!
About the update- the most amazing thing to me about Hitchins’ disquisition on Falwell was the fact that it was shown on CNN at all. Perhaps Hitchens is considered more mainstream airworthy than most atheists because of his support for the war in Iraq.
I don’t like Hitchins much, but his criticism of Falwell & Co is right on.
Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, as the Lord’s Prayer has it.
And Matt. 7:1-5:
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
One could also see it as an extension of the Golden Rule—to do unto others as you would have them do unto you—and one of the Greatest Commandments, to love one’s neighbor as oneself.
So, yes, judgment of a person—and unwillingness to love and forgive—are all very serious things (or should be) from a Christian perspective. They are certainly great temptations, which probably says something right there.
I don’t know that’s true (I’m trying to think of where he failed to extend forgiveness). I *think* his central problem was being too sure he knew what God wanted, and what God would do to those who he judged God disliked, and acting and preaching (and politicizing) on the same.
It’s hard to say without sounding a hell of a lot more hardcore Christian than I think I am, but from an orthodox perspective the both of us are sinners, falling far short of the mark. I’m hopeful I’ll be forgiven for that, and I’m sure Falwell is/was, too. And I suspect we’re both going to face a lot of surprises in the Hereafter .
So I won’t wish an unfortunate fate (let alone eternal torment, if I believed in such a thing) on Jerry Falwell. I’m just relieved that he’s no longer here to cause pain and problems and division—that’s about as far as I can (or should) go.
Dave: Good counterpoints … I’m familiar with all the scriptures you quoted … and more, and I won’t go further with that line of discussion. But I will comment on:
“I don’t know that’s true (I’m trying to think of where he failed to extend forgiveness). I *think* his central problem was being too sure he knew what God wanted, and what God would do to those who he judged God disliked, and acting and preaching (and politicizing) on the same.”
I think (and yes, this is a judgment, or at least an assumption of some sort) that Falwell didn’t really forgive in at least some instances. For him, forgiveness was theoretical or rhetorical. If his response to 9/11 was “We should go to the Middle East and bomb the Arabs” … whoa, how is that forgiveness. All phrase among the Christian community I was in during the 70s was “Love is as love does”. IOW, “by their works shall you know them”.
Is there a mote or beam in my eye? Well probably, yeah. So I am not judging Falwell, just calling him/his legacy out as I see it. I am not wishing eternal damnation for him, like you I am just glad he is gone and no longer able to directly hurt. But he leaves his legacy. There are neo-Nazis all over the world largely as the legacy of Hitler.
I think it’s fine to judge something insofar as one is discerning and identifying it for its characteristics, its implications, even if it’s right or wrong (however one defines that). Can’t do a thing without that sort of judgment.
The judgment that I believe is condemned in the Bible is the hubris of claiming to know the mind of God, of knowing how God feels about something (dicey even when you can point to exactly the same thing in Scripture, dubious when you start extrapolating from it). “What Would Jesus Do?” is a start of discussion and consideration; it’s not an invitation to come up with an absolute answer (and anyone who offers one is probably looking to sell you something).
I think you’re correct that Falwell’s harsh rhetoric toward Arabs (and even, arguably, toward groups of “sinners”) is a lack of forgiveness. In some ways, it’s the extension of the same thing—so convinced that God cannot forgive some things, it’s natural not to forgive, too …